Professionals from British Land, Derwent London, Segro and other leading property firms have taken part in a candid discussion of the challenges balancing parenting commitments with busy work schedules in a podcast series hosted by real estate recruitment specialist Madison Berkeley.
The REal Juggle, which launched this week with CoStar News as media partner, focuses on the major problems faced by real estate professionals when raising young families and forging property careers, tackling topics such as childcare costs, the value of flexible working policies and persisting gender stereotypes in the workplace.
Made up of five episodes, Madison Berkeley cofounder Clare Coe and consultant Jack Hechle interview guests from all ranks and corners of the real estate industry, featuring professionals from agencies, developers and investors. New episodes with different speakers are being published each day this week.
Podcast episode links:
Monday - Lydia Good, head of UK talent at Knight Frank, and Rebecca Gardiner, head of Storey
Tuesday - Andrew Gibson, managing director at Kontor, and Lorna Barratt, senior asset manager at Derwent
Wednesday - Anthea Harries, asset management director at Related Argent, and Anna Strongman, CEO of OUD
Please note Monday's podcast discusses baby loss and loss in general.
Episodes Overview
Your mobile screen unexpectedly flashes during a work meeting - it’s your child’s nursery. You leave the room quietly and the voice on the phone explains they are sick and need collecting.
It’s a common situation faced by working parents and a prime example of the challenge they face juggling family and work life. While managing the two can be difficult at the best of times, increasing childcare costs add to the pressure as many weigh up the benefits of paying for nursery over taking a career break.
For Anna Whitton, head of corporate affairs at residential developer Get Living and mother of two, weekday mornings are tricky as she juggles getting herself and her kids ready for the day.
"My husband normally leaves quite early in the morning, so I get the two children up, give them breakfast, get them dressed and take them into nursery," she says. "[It] can be quite a battle at times to get two young children out of the house... and feel like you are ready to start the day."
Whitton, who has worked at Get Living for around three years, says the roles reverse in the evening, with her partner covering the majority of pickups. It allows her to finish up at the office before getting home for their bedtime. She gets the laptop out again once they've gone to sleep.
The corporate affairs boss says the flexibility around her hours afforded to her by Get Living means it is easier to juggle full-time work and parenthood. It is something real estate professionals say the industry has got better at, particularly after COVID. But some are yet to catch up.
She explains this can be a recruitment disadvantage: "Flexibility is absolutely key. Companies that don't embrace flexibility are going to lose out on talent and I think that is quite widely accepted in the industry now."
Another factor that allows her to continue her career is the role of her partner, with the pair sharing the majority of parenting duties. Whitton acknowledges that her approach isn't adopted by all families, but thinks greater visibility in offices of men who are more active parents could help to ease negative stereotypes that remain.
"One of the things that frustrates me the most is people seeing childcare as women's issues. It's not a women's issue - in most cases it takes two people to make a child, not in all cases, but in most cases. I think it's really important that men are louder and prouder about their roles as fathers.
"There are some great dads at Get Living who are loud and proud... and that's really helpful. But I do certainly think that still too often in real estate, there is some kind of stigma attached to taking on a really active role as a father."
She adds: "I think it is really important to help women progress in their careers, that they have men being proud fathers in the workplace to help them get there because you absolutely need a supportive partner, or a supportive network around you, for you to be able to succeed in your career."
'I realise I was wrong'
Andrew Gibson, managing director of London flexible offices firm Kontor, says his initial experience of balancing work and family responsibilities varied from most due to both his children being born in lockdown.
Gibson says being at home had its advantages, for example, he was around more to help his partner in the early stages. He says his views on flexible working shifted when returning to the office, explaining he didn't fully understand the pressures faced by working parents before his children arrived.
"If I was deep in a meeting with someone, or doing a piece of work, and all of a sudden they had to leave, I was probably rolling my eyes a little bit, or if someone had arrived to work at 'God forbid' 9:30am because they had dropped their kids off. I am happy to put my hand in the air and say, upon having kids and looking back, I realise that was just so wrong and just so 'un-teamlike' of me."
Days when he "feels the pressure" most as a working parents are those when he has to do the drop-off before making it into the office or a morning viewing. He adds one of the joys of being a business owner is the ability to shape working from home policy to make life easier for colleagues.
"There is someone in particular in here whose wife is a teacher and she can't really do pickup and drop-off very often... so my colleague does the vast majority. He is often logging on at night, at crazy times, but he is a really reliable pair of hands. I know he is doing his job, I know he is doing it really well and, for that reason, nobody questions him."
"I'm really pleased to say we are not clock-watchers," he adds when talking about his firm. "Flexibility runs from the top to the bottom. If you are a young mother or father in this business, if you have to go, you have to go - and hopefully we all recognise that. I certainly do having had the kids."
'Astronomical' care costs
Juggling the logistics of a busy career and home life can be difficult, so many often rely on childcare to ensure they can continue working while their children are young. But extortionate costs are proving a headache for most parents who spoke to Madison Berkeley for its campaign.
A study published by the World Economic Forum last year ranked the UK as one of the most expensive countries for childcare costs, leading 43% of mothers to consider leaving their job. It acknowledged the UK government was implementing policies to reduce costs, but stressed more affordable childcare was "not only good for women and families, but good for economies too."
Anthea Harries, asset management director at Related Argent, describes childcare costs as "astronomical", adding that some parents working in real estate are having to compromise financially to continue their careers. "It is really, really hard," she says. "There is no getting around from that. I've done it, I've been there, gone to work and come back in a negative position by the time the nursery fees come in.
"Unfortunately, it is a choice - it's not an easy choice. It is not the responsibility of your employer or your business to help fund that, [but] I think there are other ways they can support that - but you have to weigh it up".
With more than 25 years experience in the real estate sector, Harries, who has four children, knows that people working in the industry can worry about pausing their career after having children.
She says a career is "a marathon, not a sprint", adding that life skills learned during time away from full-time work can be beneficial when returning to the office and helping people to navigate challenges.
Harries has encouraged younger colleagues thinking of having children to make the right decision for them, but argues "there needs to be more support in place for parents across a broader range of salaries" to help parents, particularly women, stay in work if they want to continue.
Anna Strongman, CEO at Oxford University developments and a mother of twins, agrees that more backing is needed from the government to help support parents who want to continue their careers after having children.
"We all have to do our bit to lobby for free childcare. I believe the state should provide more support, not to necessarily to people like me, but people who can't afford that level of support."
Bosses must use benefits
Fathers Rob Codling, senior fund manager Legal & General Investment Management, and Alex Keith, director at Segro, say they felt the support of their employers around the birth of their children.
Codling, who has two kids, says he was given up to four weeks paternity leave by L&G, two more than the statutory leave period in the UK, while Keith was afforded more flexibility shortly after the birth of his second child, but says it was more typically of larger real estate firms.
Keith says that policy around parental leave is changing all the time at his current firm and more widely in the industry, adding that leave is "very, very different" for his brother-in-law and sister-in-law who are expecting a child in Germany.
He stresses a company's culture, along with its policy, is just as significant in helping to improve life for working parents, arguing that male leaders can do more to help get rid of the stigma attached with men taking a longer period off for parental leave.
He says: "If we are going to put forward these policies that are going to make people's lives easier, it is incumbent on those in positions of seniority to take them and set the standard. It's all well and good going, 'well I'll only take the two weeks because that's the norm and I feel that is the macho this to do'. That is wrong. If there are the eight weeks, I feel it requires some leadership to say no and [show that] someone senior is taking them, so other people can feel comfortable in taking them as well."
'Flexibility and empathy'
Parenting is not always straightforward, but sometimes life presents certain individuals with more challenges than the average person.
Two mothers that endured difficult situations during and after their pregnancies are Lydia Good, head of UK talent at Knight Frank, and Rebecca Gardiner, head of Storey, British Land's flexible workspace business.
Good was looking after her sick mother, who was terminally ill with a brain disease, when she fell pregnant. Gardiner, a mother of three daughters, lost her eldest shortly after she was born. She would have turned eight this summer.
Both women say their companies played a crucial role in helping them to stay in their careers during their pregnancies and difficult events that surrounded them at the time, stressing real estate leaders should show flexibility and empathy.
"I had a type of flexibility which was the worst type to ever need," Good says. "Ad hoc, not planned - a complete diary management nightmare, especially [as it was] pre-COVID. There was no Teams, everything had to be done by dial-in by conference call.
"Because of my flexibility at work, I was able to take some of the additional care that often came up because my mother's needs were so complex... I genuinely believed that they cared for my situation, they cared for my situation with my mum, but also how it was impacting me personally."
Gardiner says her bosses at British Land told her to "do what you need to do" when she experienced complications with her pregnancy and lost her eldest daughter. She returned to work after five months, working four days a week initially. It allowed her to become a volunteer gardener at Hampton Court on Fridays which she says helped with her grief.
Gardiner says the relationship built with her employer at that time has translated into a long stint at the firm. "Lydia and I have both been at our companies for a long time, and a lot of that will be because of the support you get through these big life changes, means that you are loyal to a business who you feel has your back".